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C00001 00001
C00002 00002	Jim,
C00004 00003	spengler and lisp
C00009 00004	∂19-Jan-81  1028	williams at PARC-MAXC 	Re: spengler and lisp 
C00012 00005	∂20-Jan-81  2118	williams at PARC-MAXC 	Re: spengler
C00013 00006	jim,
C00015 00007	68k lisp
C00018 00008	lisps
C00024 ENDMK
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Jim,

alas, i don't ssem to be over this stuff yet, so rather than bet on getting
back here 'till monday i'm shipping a draft to you. i'm still getting break-downs
on the parts and pieces, but the outline of what i'm doing and where it's going
is in place. i've shipped the whole plan, from what's up immediately (phase I)
all the way through full-scale development (Phase III). the emphasis is on
an integrated and gradual build-up of systems and personnel, with the
immediate concern of funding the low-cost end for the spring and summer projects.

please let me know which parts-and pieces of this proposal you'd be most
interested in.  if you'd like to call i'm at 408 353-3857 or msgs to  408 353-2227

						john


spengler and lisp

i don't know whether to thank you or complain. i got the abridged  version
of "decline"  and the  first volume  of the  unabridged version.   started
reading the abridged, and  was fascinated except  that some things  didn't
ring true  (e.g.  a  section  called "antiquity  and india"  that  doesn't
mention india!) so compared the unabridged version ...quite a  difference.
so now i'm reading (and re-reading!)  the first two chapters before  going
on with the rest.

it's an amazing book, both for its  content and its style. i find it  slow
going but  almost  impossible  to put  down  for  more than  a  few  hours
(grumble, grumble, grumble; it takes up all of my time now).  the style is
almost poetic  --truly  amazing that  it  comes through  the  translation.
there is a section describing the birth-death cycle of cultures that could
have come out of  Smith's "kamongo", another favorite  book of mine.   The
content, of  course, makes  hofstatder's godel-escher-bach  insights  look
like child's play; i wonder that doug didn't reference spengler.

i'm being seduced by his argument, but since my backgrounnd is not at  all
strong in  philisophy, i'm  having a  colleague who  studied  pre-socratic
greeks, give a second opinion.  at worst, this book will give me a broader
base to hang my arguments on; at best?... well that's a bit early yet.


i've finished hacking papers to the  wccf, one is the bankruptcy of  basic
--religous tract; the  other is  the tutorial  outline: "lisp,  functions,
objects, frames,  and  constraints: functional  flesh,  functional  bones"
these will turn into the santa clara courses and a book.

unfortunately, the money  for the interactive  programming lab is  getting
further away,  and the  info  world review  of  tlc-lisp doesn't  help  my
finances (or mood!)  much. their "lisp expert" doesn't know lisp or how to
read: i'm "pleased" to  discover that my lisp  compiles its programs,  i'm
"perplexed" to discover that i  only have 16-bit integers; i'm  "dismayed"
to learn that the  lisp world still wants  progs even though  do,catch,and
throw are there plus &aux-ies  and let (they could  only find let); and  i
really wonder why one needs strings longer than 256 characters in lisp for
such a tiny machine.

sigh.

to both of you: that  was a very pleasant lunch  the other day; i  reallly
appreciate finding out about spengler.

mike: --do you know if the unabridged version of "decline" is available in
paperback? i'd like it for the class).

jim: --any progress on the "rfp" front?

i'd better go hack course notes before the machine fills up.

john
∂19-Jan-81  1028	williams at PARC-MAXC 	Re: spengler and lisp 
Date: 19 Jan 1981 10:23 PST
From: williams at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: spengler and lisp
In-reply-to: JRA's message of 16 Jan 1981 0418-PST
To: John Allen <JRA at SU-AI>
cc: williams
--------------------------------------------
John,

	You force me to display my ignorance.  I've only read/seen the
abridged version.  But do you really think that novice computer scientists will
want to tackle the whole thing, even a substantial part?  You have greater hope
for the world than even I.

		Mike

mike,

i'm sure some novice computer scientists will want read spengler.   that's
one of the hopeful  signs in the  field: it's more  than a pure  technical
exercise like  much  of engineering.   the  difficulty with  the  abridged
version is the removal of much of the mathematically relevant material (as
well as short-changing much of his poetry  --he really is a poet) i  don't
believe a lot will want to read it  but, of course, a lot of people  don't
know what's  good for  them.  consider  the people  who think  "lisp is  a
special purpose list-processing language".

i've bought my own copy of vol 1, and will have to order vol 2 when i  get
some bucks.  his work puts some perspective on my rantings and ravings.  i
want to  be  able  to  talk  accurately about  his  work  for  the  spring
undergrad. course at santa clara --"the art of computer science". the real
challenge will be trying to relate  computing and spengler to the  faculty
this summer; i hope that comes off.

∂20-Jan-81  2118	williams at PARC-MAXC 	Re: spengler
Date: 20 Jan 1981 17:02 PST
From: williams at PARC-MAXC
Subject: Re: spengler
In-reply-to: Your message of 20 Jan 1981 0457-PST
To: John Allen <JRA at SU-AI>
cc: williams

John,

	From the sound of it I may want to attend a few of your lectures.  You
are making me think more of spengler and the intellectual revolution underway
today.  Maybe I'll even tackle the unabridged spengler.

		Mike

jim,

i agree, apollo looks interesting. i corresponded with d. nelson
about a year ago and he expressed interest in lisp as a possible
language for his machine. i didn't pursue it then 'cause they had no
machines, i had no money and with the conference, had no time.

compucolor (i, think) has announced a 68k system too, and appears to
look reasonable. i understand they're essentially without software.

... and there's rumors coming out of apple, and cromemco, and ... ;sigh.

i'll try running down rumors and details.

*** it might help me get some leverage on thses companies if i could
*** mention the NPRDC connection. would that be ok?

indeed, please call or net mail me if you have troubles/questions.
i'm here every morning but wed, from about 4am 'tll about noon, at
santa clara (408 984-4358) in afternoons, and home 7-9pm (408-353-3857)
with msgs to 408 353-2227.

on the other front: spengler has been a real win. makes me feel quite
inadequate to handle the santa clara faculty workshop.

					john
68k lisp

al,

i've got a few questions about the arrangements.

1. it bothers me to specify a cost of an as yet unspecified product.
will your auditor really be satisfied with such generalities?
i'm willing to say that i can develop a version of tlc-lisp for the
68k in the 90-100k range (machine and labor) --and that's a bargin. but 
if it's specified that labor is $50-60k then there's no reason for me trying
to deal for a machine with apollo. i just end up getting paid less and have
an additional committment to apollo.  if it's feasible it may be better for me to 
get a lump sum and work out an arrangement for a machine. right now
every nickel counts!

2. can we specify the arrangement such that the target code ends up
in the public domain, but the source remains tlc's?

i hate to be over cautious, but i have to come out of this in a position
to do something with the results. if i end up broke, and with the code
available to all, tlc is dead. my competitors are quite well off with
staff and pr budgets --most
people i talk with claim tlc's lisp is far superior, but it doesn't pay bills.
i have no money to  advertize, and no money to pay people to develop products
or extend the existing version; the effect is that  mu-lisp and now several
more micro lisps, are  doing rather well while tlc languishes.

what bothers me is the similarity to the cromemco contract: machines plus
money got me a product but put me badly in debt. cromemco doesn't advertise
it and i've only been able to afford one $300 ad. in the 
cromemco  case, however,
i did retain rights to the software; here i'm afraid the worse of both could
happen.

indeed, i will do the 68k lisp. i just want to
make sure that as many avenues are examined as possible in order
to come out of this alive!
lisps

jim,

i'm sorry too that things have gone so slowly. it's unfortunate that the
hardware took so long to come, and then wasn't the same as mine. it was
with shock, boardering on hysteria, that i happened to  find out that  bbn
was using 5", not 8" drives; this after sending them my version of cp/m
without solving  their problem.  so far i've absorbed my costs on this
business: free single-bank lisp, fed express bills, phones, and free
multi-bank lisp as a "beta test-site" (bbn is holding a p.o. on the multi-bank,
but i don't want to accept money until this thing works). i'm anxious to have
the multi-bank version finished; i thought you knew that it was under test
at bbn, not a product yet; unfortunately it was not until april/may that
hardwar/os configurations have been stable enough to begin testing. the
n-1 th message i had from larry stead was that they'd discuss shipping a
flopppy disc controller and a 5" disc loaner to me so i'd be compatible with
them; i heard nothing, assumed the worst (i.e. they'd given up), but
when i called them  discovered that they were up and running. i'd like to
be able to buy a 5" and controller myself to resolve this faster, but i'm
broke and in debt! on the n-th call to al, it wasn't at all clear that they
thought the multi-bank was worth the extra work. we reaally DO need better
communications.

on the bugs/sources: indeed i have agreed to sell the sources, and will help
resolve these multi-bank problems. the system is  very close to debugged, but
its been a case of priorities for me: if i don't get some funding soon, tlc
will no longer exist; i made about $9K last year (before taxes!) with about
$2K from tlc; it's pretty stupid to continue at that rate. so i've been spending
the majority of my time trying to convince prospective investors that lisp is
a good thing, that lisp/education is a good thing, that lisp/applications are
viable. unfortuantely with zero funds, i cannot advertize, cannot hire people,
basically cannot to much but bleed to death. that gets very tiresome.
if you/bbn seriously want the bank-switched version, then we should set down some
ground rules: if i spend my time doing z-80 lisp (to the exclusion of pursuit/work
on 16-32 bit lisps) i'd like to know that when it's finished i won't find you/bbn
going to another lisp supplier for next  product. in my current position, i can't
pursue both, and i think we all know that the larger address space machines are 
the ultimate lisp markets. i've watched lmi and ssmbolic eat the high end market
and now logo inc take the low end --all this happening while tlc has insufficient
funds to move-- the area that's left is the middle ground, and i'd be royally
bummed to find someone take that while i piss it away on z-80's.

				john
p.s. on a somewhat happier note, the course went rather well, but unforutnately
will have to sit out a year at santa clara at least. turns out the
engineering dean doesn't like "philosophy taught in his school" --philosophy equals
lisp, logo, and smalltalk, with a little "social relevance" thrown in, and
the humanities school is "very interested in the couurse" but just went through
a re-organization so "we'll set up a committee this fall to study the matter".
so i'm looking for a new home for the course; several schools are interested.